Washington Redskins

bandkid

Moderator
Staff member
pngfanatic said:
Now that the season's over ...

Yes, I'm really happy with my support of Dr. Cavness. This country would be a lot better off if those of us with traditional values weren't so reluctant to speak out because of the PC police. If you think trying to assuage the progressives in this country is a winning strategy, then you are sadly mistaken. They are relentless in their desire to impose their radical ideas on the rest of us - i.e. "fundamentally change this country". Rather than doing "damage control", I see situations like this as an opportunity to present a point of view that many are seldom exposed to. They're certainly not going to hear it from the mainstream media or academia.

I also sent a email of support to Dr. Cavness. In his response, he expressed his love of PNG and the "salt of the earth blue collar people" in the area. I couldn't agree more and wish we had more individuals like that here in Tampa. I think his attitude actually attracts more families to Port Neches and Groves than it discourages. If having an Indian mascot really causes someone to consider living elsewhere, as Dr. Cavness stated, "if they are offended, they don't have to come here".

And, as far as I can tell, the sky hasn't fallen yet. But if the "leftist extremists" decide to attack, my hope is that, through strong leadership and conviction, PNG will become a champion for the mascot issue rather than a "whipping boy". If you truly hate political correctness more than Dr. Cavness and myself combined, then stand with us.

Okay, I'm gonna give you a pass on the whole "assuaging progressives" thing since, from the looks of it, you aren't a particularly active member of the board and probably haven't seen most of my politically oriented posts. Suffice it to say that you're talking to the last person who wants to "assuage progressives." Matter of fact, I spent the better part of my high school career antagonizing them on this very website. Feel free to go back and look if you don't believe me.

I don't think "assuaging progressives" is the winning strategy. I think beating them is the winning strategy, and you don't accomplish that by making yourself, your cause, your community and everyone associated with you look like a backwoods, liberal-hating fool. I guarantee you that I'm just as firmly planted on the right side of the political spectrum as you are - in fact, I'd bet good money that I'm more conservative than you are in certain respects. But whatever my ideological leanings may be, I'm also a politico. Politics has been a lifelong interest of mine; I grew up around it in this area, and it was my field of study in undergrad. I can tell you from a significant amount of personal, practical and academic experience that politics is not a game of ideologies, facts, debates, truths, principles or policies as purists like me (and I suspect you) would like it to be.

Politics, particularly today, is an image-driven game in an increasingly image-conscious society. We don't live in a world where the majority of people make a decision based on what they think about something, we live in a world where the majority of people make a decision based on how they feel about something, and how they feel about something - in other words, the perception they hold of a particular person, group of people or issue - is often shaped by the medium they use to gather information - in other words, media spin. It is so easy in this day and age for people, political groups and institutions to be made to look like things they're not because of people out there who are very, very good at twisting words and bending facts to create an image that misrepresents reality. The folks on the other side of the aisle understand this far better than anyone on our side of the aisle ever has, with perhaps the lone exception of Ronald Reagan; they're called the "vocal minority" for a reason. That's why someone like Hilary Clinton, who bears at least partial responsibility for the death of a US ambassador and whose foundation regularly violated federal law to accept donations from overseas entities while she was Secretary of State, is running for president with substantial financial and popular backing instead of sitting in a jail cell right now. Popular opinion is a powerful force that is easily swayed and rarely based in objective truth.

Don't believe me? Let's look at an example from right here in Texas. We have college students (supposedly our best and brightest) and a media complex at this state's flagship university who think a statue was responsible for mass shootings and violence against minorities all its own, despite the earnest intentions behind the erection of that statute. This past summer, they were successful in getting that statue removed from public display. Why? Because they were successful in portraying imagery that imputed racism where there wasn't any, misconstrued history, made the statue out to be victimizing and made people who either didn't care about the statue or didn't think it should be moved out to be accomplices in the victimization. And because that imagery, in conjunction with similar imagery being portrayed in other parts of the country, swung public opinion behind their cause. I could offer other, similar examples of image having an effect like this, but I don't think I need too. You can probably think of them on your own.

Now, how does that play into this situation? Because (1) it shows that John Q. Public will buy into anything where the word "racism" gets thrown around, (2) that public opinion is outcome-determinative in these situations and (3) that if someone can make you out to look like a victimizer, you're done for. This is why it's so incredibly important for PN-G to emphasize the real reasons underlying the use of the American Indian likeness here - the local history, the relationship with the Cherokee Nation and so on, instead of some inflated rhetorical monologue about "political correctness" and "leftist extermism." A growing number of people consider the average American to be racist, homophobic, uneducated and any other negative adjective you can think of. That image is already ambient in the collective mind of the American public. If someone wanted to come after PN-G for its mascot, all they would need is a little bit of evidence of racism in this community to run on, and they could paint us right into that corner. The moment that happens, condition #3 is met. All it'll take is for public opinion to turn against us and the PN-G Indians are done for. That's why so many other sports teams have already changed their name, and it'll likely be the case with more. Frankly, we got lucky this time; if this had been a year or two ago when there was so much backlash against the Redskins, we probably would have gotten swept up in the media hype, and we wouldn't have the advantage of being a privately owned NFL team with millions of dollars in commercial sales to help us weather the storm and a full PR staff to do damage control for us. Our best bet is to be proactive and keep the focus on the right things, not to give the liberals out there fuel for the fire. Focusing on our history and our connection with the Cherokee Nation isn't just the right thing to do because it is, in fact, the reason we have our mascot, it's the necessary thing to do if we're to sustain that tradition.
 

IndianFan

Web Guy
Btw, Dr. Caveness was on 740 KTRH the other morning. He was talking with Michael Berry who described Caveness as his favorite Texas school superintendent. Caveness made his 'we're the Indians and were not changing' statement.

Michael Berry, who is from Orangefield and now a nationally known conservative radio talk show host, is very familiar with PNG.
 

prepballfan

There's No Place Like The Reservation Friday Night
Staff member
PN-G bamatex said:
pngfanatic said:
Now that the season's over ...

Yes, I'm really happy with my support of Dr. Cavness. This country would be a lot better off if those of us with traditional values weren't so reluctant to speak out because of the PC police. If you think trying to assuage the progressives in this country is a winning strategy, then you are sadly mistaken. They are relentless in their desire to impose their radical ideas on the rest of us - i.e. "fundamentally change this country". Rather than doing "damage control", I see situations like this as an opportunity to present a point of view that many are seldom exposed to. They're certainly not going to hear it from the mainstream media or academia.

I also sent a email of support to Dr. Cavness. In his response, he expressed his love of PNG and the "salt of the earth blue collar people" in the area. I couldn't agree more and wish we had more individuals like that here in Tampa. I think his attitude actually attracts more families to Port Neches and Groves than it discourages. If having an Indian mascot really causes someone to consider living elsewhere, as Dr. Cavness stated, "if they are offended, they don't have to come here".

And, as far as I can tell, the sky hasn't fallen yet. But if the "leftist extremists" decide to attack, my hope is that, through strong leadership and conviction, PNG will become a champion for the mascot issue rather than a "whipping boy". If you truly hate political correctness more than Dr. Cavness and myself combined, then stand with us.

Okay, I'm gonna give you a pass on the whole "assuaging progressives" thing since, from the looks of it, you aren't a particularly active member of the board and probably haven't seen most of my politically oriented posts. Suffice it to say that you're talking to the last person who wants to "assuage progressives." Matter of fact, I spent the better part of my high school career antagonizing them on this very website. Feel free to go back and look if you don't believe me.

I don't think "assuaging progressives" is the winning strategy. I think beating them is the winning strategy, and you don't accomplish that by making yourself, your cause, your community and everyone associated with you look like a backwoods, liberal-hating fool. I guarantee you that I'm just as firmly planted on the right side of the political spectrum as you are - in fact, I'd bet good money that I'm more conservative than you are in certain respects. But whatever my ideological leanings may be, I'm also a politico. Politics has been a lifelong interest of mine; I grew up around it in this area, and it was my field of study in undergrad. I can tell you from a significant amount of personal, practical and academic experience that politics is not a game of ideologies, facts, debates, truths, principles or policies as purists like me (and I suspect you) would like it to be.

Politics, particularly today, is an image-driven game in an increasingly image-conscious society. We don't live in a world where the majority of people make a decision based on what they think about something, we live in a world where the majority of people make a decision based on how they feel about something, and how they feel about something - in other words, the perception they hold of a particular person, group of people or issue - is often shaped by the medium they use to gather information - in other words, media spin. It is so easy in this day and age for people, political groups and institutions to be made to look like things they're not because of people out there who are very, very good at twisting words and bending facts to create an image that misrepresents reality. The folks on the other side of the aisle understand this far better than anyone on our side of the aisle ever has, with perhaps the lone exception of Ronald Reagan; they're called the "vocal minority" for a reason. That's why someone like Hilary Clinton, who bears at least partial responsibility for the death of a US ambassador and whose foundation regularly violated federal law to accept donations from overseas entities while she was Secretary of State, is running for president with substantial financial and popular backing instead of sitting in a jail cell right now. Popular opinion is a powerful force that is easily swayed and rarely based in objective truth.

Don't believe me? Let's look at an example from right here in Texas. We have college students (supposedly our best and brightest) and a media complex at this state's flagship university who think a statue was responsible for mass shootings and violence against minorities all its own, despite the earnest intentions behind the erection of that statute. This past summer, they were successful in getting that statue removed from public display. Why? Because they were successful in portraying imagery that imputed racism where there wasn't any, misconstrued history, made the statue out to be victimizing and made people who either didn't care about the statue or didn't think it should be moved out to be accomplices in the victimization. And because that imagery, in conjunction with similar imagery being portrayed in other parts of the country, swung public opinion behind their cause. I could offer other, similar examples of image having an effect like this, but I don't think I need too. You can probably think of them on your own.

Now, how does that play into this situation? Because (1) it shows that John Q. Public will buy into anything where the word "racism" gets thrown around, (2) that public opinion is outcome-determinative in these situations and (3) that if someone can make you out to look like a victimizer, you're done for. This is why it's so incredibly important for PN-G to emphasize the real reasons underlying the use of the American Indian likeness here - the local history, the relationship with the Cherokee Nation and so on, instead of some inflated rhetorical monologue about "political correctness" and "leftist extermism." A growing number of people consider the average American to be racist, homophobic, uneducated and any other negative adjective you can think of. That image is already ambient in the collective mind of the American public. If someone wanted to come after PN-G for its mascot, all they would need is a little bit of evidence of racism in this community to run on, and they could paint us right into that corner. The moment that happens, condition #3 is met. All it'll take is for public opinion to turn against us and the PN-G Indians are done for. That's why so many other sports teams have already changed their name, and it'll likely be the case with more. Frankly, we got lucky this time; if this had been a year or two ago when there was so much backlash against the Redskins, we probably would have gotten swept up in the media hype, and we wouldn't have the advantage of being a privately owned NFL team with millions of dollars in commercial sales to help us weather the storm and a full PR staff to do damage control for us. Our best bet is to be proactive and keep the focus on the right things, not to give the liberals out there fuel for the fire. Focusing on our history and our connection with the Cherokee Nation isn't just the right thing to do because it is, in fact, the reason we have our mascot, it's the necessary thing to do if we're to sustain that tradition.

Bama do you not believe that the issue with using Indian likenesses is about the more slurred names like Redskins or teams with mascots who I guess mock Indians. I cannot say enough that we are named Indians to represent the local Indian tribe. Out of respect for them. Even had the forethought to seek the blessing of Cherokee Nation. Why did we do this/ Was it because someone was so insightful they new one day that there would be trouble down the road? Was it because we actually do respect the Indian and their ways? I believe in my heart it was the 2nd option. WHat has PN-G done in your eyes that would harm the image of the Indians of our great nation. By the way I do not claim to be Indian but I am of Indian decent in a small portion on my grandmothers side. I do not have a dog in that fight. Yet I hold the American Indians in the most highest regard. So I ask you (interested in you opinion). What has PNG done wrong. What is it that a agenda driven group would try and do to us. Then I ask what is it PN-G can do. I read recently that the community would decide what would be done over the cross at the Port Neches Park. Just curious on your thoughts of the legality of it? Of the Indian mascot?
 

bandkid

Moderator
Staff member
prepballfan said:
Bama do you not believe that the issue with using Indian likenesses is about the more slurred names like Redskins or teams with mascots who I guess mock Indians. I cannot say enough that we are named Indians to represent the local Indian tribe. Out of respect for them. Even had the forethought to seek the blessing of Cherokee Nation. Why did we do this/ Was it because someone was so insightful they new one day that there would be trouble down the road? Was it because we actually do respect the Indian and their ways? I believe in my heart it was the 2nd option. WHat has PN-G done in your eyes that would harm the image of the Indians of our great nation. By the way I do not claim to be Indian but I am of Indian decent in a small portion on my grandmothers side. I do not have a dog in that fight. Yet I hold the American Indians in the most highest regard. So I ask you (interested in you opinion). What has PNG done wrong. What is it that a agenda driven group would try and do to us. Then I ask what is it PN-G can do. I read recently that the community would decide what would be done over the cross at the Port Neches Park. Just curious on your thoughts of the legality of it? Of the Indian mascot?

If you read publications from the National Congress of American Indians, professors in various American Indians studies programs and other such sources, that's the beef they take. They go down the "mockery" and "racism" path. NCAI has a document floating around out there that ties the practice explicitly to racist origins, and uses that in an attempt to prove that all teams that use the likeness are carrying on a racist tradition, whether they know it or not.

Truth be told, did some teams adopt the likeness with racist intentions or in a racist mindset? Probably, but I'd bet those are anecdotal examples that aren't really indicative of an overall trend. Did all? No, and I honestly doubt most did. Did the Redskins? I don't know enough about the Redskins' history to comment either way, but I'll admit that if a team adopted a name that so explicitly ties the team to the color of a particular racial group's skin today as opposed to decades ago, it would raise eyebrows.

Did the PN-G Indians? No, and it is completely and totally asinine to suggest that they did. Unfortunately, that's not going to stop everyone. That's why we need to be proactive.

On that note, to answer your question about whether PN-G's gotten things right so far and how it should conduct itself going forward, I think that PN-G's done 95% of what it needs to do to keep its choice of mascot beyond reproach. Honestly, I wouldn't be concerned at all right now were it not for Dr. Cavness taking every available opportunity to jump into the media spotlight and attack the liberals, because that does nothing but put a big target on our back. Again, my beef here is not that Dr. Cavness defended our mascot - I would expect our superintendent to do that. My beef is how he did it, not only because it was inappropriate for a public official to attack people's political beliefs, but also because that plays right into the liberals' hands and gives them all the ammunition they need to come after us.

Going forward, step one is dropping the rhetoric and putting the spotlight back where it needs to be. We've adopted the American Indian likeness for our mascot at PN-G because we identify characteristics in that likeness that we want our students and our community to emulate, and because our community has historical ties to various American Indian tribes. It's got nothing to do with defying liberals.

Step two has to do with the only area where I thought PN-G could do better before Cavness made those statements. I think it would be a good idea to reach out and shore up our relationship with the Cherokee Nation, and I think the best way to do that is to ask for their help in developing a special curriculum for US History classes at PN-G, either 8th or 11th grade, that takes a more in-depth approach to studying the history of American Indians in the United States, in particular the Cherokee and the tribes that once inhabited the local area. I think they would be totally on board with that, I think it would be a great way to honor our local history and theirs, I think it would broaden and strengthen our relationship with them, I think it would give our students a deeper appreciation for what the American Indian likeness means to the school, the community and American Indians, and lastly, I think it would be an affirmative defense to the whole "PN-G is racist" argument.

We do those two things, and I think this controversy is put to bed for good.
 

IndianFan

Web Guy
Approaching the present Cherokee governing body could possibly backfire and would have to be carefully considered.

http://www.ncai.org/proudtobe

Laying low until approached might be the best option. Or at the very least, test the waters first before openly seeking renewed support.

In 1999 and 2014 the U.S. Patent Office ruled that the R-word is "disparaging to Native Americans" and therefore not entitled to taxpayer-financed copyright protections. In 2009, NCAI filed an amicus brief along with four tribal governments (Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Comanche Nation of Oklahoma, Oneida Indian Tribe of Wisconsin, and Seminole Nation of Oklahoma – all federally recognized Indian tribes that have adopted resolutions condemning the use of Indian names and mascots by sports teams), as well as over 20 national Indian organizations, requesting that the US Supreme Court hear an appeal to the lower court rulings and uphold the PTO’s decision.
.
 

bandkid

Moderator
Staff member
What about the Alabama Coushatta Indians? They have a reservation near Livingston. It's one of the few in the state.
 

IndianFan

Web Guy
The Coushatta tribe and it's traditions are probably more inline with the presentation and movements associated with PNG's extracarricular groups.

In reality the Cherokee tribes never wore extravagant head dresses or had any ceremonial movements other than the 'stomp' dance.

On the other hand, the Alabama Coushatta tribes do have more visual dress and ceremonies.

This opinion may upset some people, so stop reading if you don't want to hear it. Other than the fight song which is modeled after an original Jazz tune named Cherokee, and the honor of being named Ambassadors of Goodwill by the Cherokee Nation, I'm not convinced that the Port Neches-Groves Indians necessarily need represent a Cherokee tribe. As you suggested BamaTex, they could relate to any Native American tribe. And groups like the Coushatta's are a closer match.
 

IndianFan

Web Guy
A few more facts... War bonnets were primarily worn by Plains Indians. Those tribes include the Blackfoot, Arapaho, Assiniboine, Cheyenne, Comanche, Crow, Gros Ventre, Kiowa, Lakota, Lipan, Plains Apache (or Kiowa Apache), Plains Cree, Plains Ojibwe, Sarsi, Nakoda (Stoney), and Tonkawa. The second group of Plains Indians were semi-sedentary, and, in addition to hunting buffalo, they lived in villages, raised crops, and actively traded with other tribes. These include the Arikara, Hidatsa, Iowa, Kaw (or Kansa), Kitsai, Mandan, Missouria, Omaha, Osage, Otoe, Pawnee, Ponca, Quapaw, Wichita, and the Santee Dakota, Yanktonai and Yankton Dakota.
 

NEXT GAMEDAY

5A DII REGIONAL ROUND

PN-G Indians (11-1)
vs.
Texas High Tigers (12-0)

Friday, Nov. 29, 7:00PM

Northwestern State University Turpin Stadium, Natchitoches, LA

PN-G INDIANS FOOTBALL

I could not be more proud of our team and our community. The spirit here is unmatched! I am so lucky to be a part of it and to wear the purple and white! The journey of this football season, with these coaches and our players, will stay with me forever.  -- PN-G Head Coach Jeff Joseph

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