Continuous attacks on the PN-G mascot.

prepballfan

There's No Place Like The Reservation Friday Night
Staff member
Through the years I have heard of people attacking our Indian mascot. I often wonder would them knowing our area's history and understanding that the area that Port Neches sets on now was the home to the only Indian settlement in South East, Texas. Then I even wonder about whether they know PN-G sought out the permission to use the Indian likeness from Chief of the Cherokee Nation in 1979. I also wonder if they know that the Indian head on our field and field house was designed by a Native American. I posted below some of the news articles which is mostly against our mascot who is a symbol of pride and tradition at PN-G. Who also represents the Karankawas and the Attakapas that lived in the area that Port Neches now sits on. http://www.wtblock.com/wtblockjr/indian.htm This is a great historical read about the real Indians of The Port Neches, Texas area. PN-G also does not allow caricatures of Indians to be displayed at the school.

https://kfdm.com/news/local/will-png-rid-themselves-of-indian-mascot-png-isd-board-member-says-no

https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/archive/8-tasteless-native-american-sports-references-not-relating-to-the-redskins-_K9HHfn2k0CGl9q7Mjl6cA/

https://www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/article/PN-G-responds-to-Adidas-offer-to-change-Indian-6620605.php

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2001/05/02/schools-debate-what-in-native-american-name.html

https://www.revolvy.com/page/Native-American-mascot-controversy

https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily-post/the-state-of-texas-november-11-2015/
 

prepballfan

There's No Place Like The Reservation Friday Night
Staff member
This is a topic I know very well. I wrote a research paper on it in my college English 2 class. I decided to write in favor of having the mascots and could find hardly any information about supporting it. It was a tough research which even included me talking to Native Americans about the issue. Most of the ones I had discussion would agree that it would be worth at least a discussion to let PNG keep the mascot. One woman told me I was lying about the approval from the Indian Nation. I told her about Chief Ross O. Swimmer blessing our use of the mascot. She told me she knew of every Cherokee Nation Chief in her lifetime and I was lying and making it up. She told me that there was no Chief Ross O Swimmer at the Cherokee Nation. She also said she had never heard of the Cherokee Nation giving this type of approval for a mascot before. I sent her a photo of the seal and accompanying information and she got back to me a week later with questions about several aspects of our use of the mascot. Eventually, she got back with me and gave her opinion. First, she verified that Chief Swimmer was a real Chief....LOL, Second she agreed after watching a video of our halftime performance that if it were her decision she agreed that there should be a goodwill ambassadorship type thing she would personally give our school after reviewing all the information. Largely due to the fact that we were already representing two local Indian tribes from our home area and the fact that we decided to seek out the permission from the Cherokee Nation likely indicating to her, that at that time, had we been rejected we would have considered changing it then. I would never agree to changing our mascot, but it looks like the pressure will only increase in the future.
 

RoschonsBigBro

Active Member
I look at it like this. If you go about it the right way, get the blessing from the people, and sincerely try to honor and respect the history of the people then its fine, like Florida State who has the blessing of that Seminole tribe. We can't decide if it is fine, the people who it is named after do.

If you don't have the blessing of the people then it doesn't seem right. Stuff like the Redskins is derogatory and was once an insult. It would be the equivalent if there were names today like the New Orleans Darkies, West Virginia Crackers, and Los Angeles Wet Backs. You get my point? However for people who don't know anything about PNG probably just plainly see a majority White school with an Indian Mascot in Texas which without explanation doesn't look too good from the perspective of people who want to get rid of stuff like this.

Its a tough issue but if people can communicate and listen it should work out. Sounds like PNG did their homework when they chose this.
 

prepballfan

There's No Place Like The Reservation Friday Night
Staff member
Great view Bigbro I guess the first thing to think about is the fact that the decision to be the Indians was made 93 years ago in 1925. Back then a lot of folks named there schools and organizations after Indian related stuff. Some was done in a derogatory manner some was done in this case out of respect to those that’s lived here before the city of Port Neches was even thought of if you will. Most of the Native Americans I spoke with on the matter thought of it as a respectful honor to their people. Not all but most and I can’t remember if I spoke with 6 or 7 doing my research. I thought I would try and bring up some thought provoking discussion.
 

prepballfan

There's No Place Like The Reservation Friday Night
Staff member
One idea that the lady gave me was to hold some Native American classses or some mandatory studies for all at our school and possibly even some type of fundraising to donate to the Cherokee Nation or other tribal council in our Arra.
 

Usedtocould

2,000+ Posts
Might be a controversial opinion here. But it is also echoed by my father in law who lives in Nederland and is Cherokee and is heavily involved in the Cherokee nation. Some of you might know him I’m sure. Some time in the very near future if things keep going the way they are the only remnant of “Indians” will be mascots like ours, the Hare Krishnas and casinos. Most of the tribes (I spent a massive amount of time around Sioux, Hopi, and Navajo reservations) are so caught up in alcohol, drugs, and in-fighting amongst themselves. It’s sad. If my heritage were so respectfully, and carefully preserved in the way PNG does it I would be more than honored. In my opinion the big uproar that happened maybe 5 years ago involving Redskins (honestly I agree with the change made to Houston Lamar Redskins due to the way MB Lamar treated the natives)(so badly in fact he and Sam Houston had a blood feud)(hope I don’t step on any LU toes) but what I think happened is that the sports media started to realize that their golden calf the Fighting Irish were next in the crosshairs. (My opinion) stand strong. When there’s no deviation from the “we will NEVER change our mascot” they lose their fire. Same with the Illini they are very connected to their name (Chief is their “Indian spirit”) I have deep respect for native culture. Spent several summers at reservations growing up because my uncle was an Apache.
 

bandkid

Moderator
Staff member
Echoing what was stated above, I have a little personal history involved here, too.

Many, many moons ago, a full-blooded Cherokee maiden whose parents were on the Trail of Tears made her way out of the reservation in Oklahoma by working as a servant in a home in Fayetteville, Arkansas. In 1867, she married the son of a local preacher who had returned to Fayetteville after fighting in Arkansas's fourth infantry battalion for the Confederacy during the Civil War, and they moved shortly thereafter to a farm in Collin County, Texas. For nearly fifty years after that, she lived on that farm, and every time the census came around, she put down on paper that she was white, claiming various states as her birthplace (Louisiana in one census, Indiana in another, Michigan in another, and so on). She also always made sure her three children were listed as white. The reason? She was scared to death that if her husband ever died and the government ever came to the farm, they'd round her up and send her back to the reservation she was raised on, the same way they had with her parents. Having taken a white name by marriage, she always hoped that she would go unnoticed if that time ever came. She did, however, keep records of the family line on the inside of the cover of the family Bible, and that and several black and white pictures of a very, very Cherokee woman in her late 60s next to her white husband have been passed down to posterity.

That woman was my three times great grandmother.

Her grandson - my great grandfather - was only a quarter Cherokee. But as many of American Indian descent know, native features can display themselves very prominently in descendants who are overwhelmingly European by heritage, and the pictures make that clear, too. His father was a white blacksmith from Alabama who had married his much younger mother (his third or fourth marriage; we're not sure which) after coming to Texas to get away from the economic depression of the turn-of-the-century deep South. Although his mother died when he was very young, my great grandfather apprenticed as a blacksmith under his father for all of his formative years, eventually inheriting the blacksmith practice as an adolescent.

But nobody trusted an Indian blacksmith, even if he'd spent years learning from a white blacksmith they'd done business with before.

So, looking for work, my great grandfather took the family line back to Oklahoma, which until just recently had been referred to as Indian Territory. There, he found work, though not as a blacksmith, because even there, nobody trusted an Indian blacksmith. Instead, he took up carpentry, and he kept in line with the family tradition of always putting the "W" down on the census forms in case the government ever came back looking for us. He eventually purchased a home in Chickasha, Oklahoma, where he married a white woman and fathered two sons, including my grandfather. In his later years, he would make frequent trips to the reservation in Oklahoma, hoping to reconnect with his ancestral roots. At one point, he even made arrangements for a Cherokee cremation ceremony, though that was later vetoed by his second wife who wanted to be buried alongside him.

My grandfather took a very different approach. Being only an eighth Cherokee by this time, he could pass for white - you could see hints of native heritage if you looked closely, but it wasn't readily apparent to the naked eye. After growing up in dust bowl-era Oklahoma, he left to work in the oil industry in Texas supporting the war effort (he was ineligible for the draft due to a childhood injury). After coming to Texas, he never moved back to Oklahoma, and he never spoke of his heritage to anyone outside of the family; as far as the general public was concerned, he was English like his mother and his father's ancestry was Walsh like his last name. He was terrified that if anyone found out about the Cherokee in him, he would lose work like his father had, and he strictly adhered to that policy right up to the day he died. Only at small family gatherings was it a permissible topic of discussion. My grandmother, who is now 95 and full-blooded German from a Texas German-speaking family, still doesn't like talking about it for fear of judgment. When brought up around her, it is always treated as a touchy subject; as far as I know, she never even told my grandfather's in-laws about it. If old habits die hard, I suppose old social stigmas do, too.

One of the things I appreciate most about my alma mater is the fact that it does embrace the Indian history in our area, and that it does keep the Cherokee and the other tribes at the forefront of the local collective conscience. I deeply appreciate that I went to a school where the fact that I have a few drops of Cherokee blood coursing through my veins wasn't looked down on as grounds for shunning, but rather accepted and if anything, thought of as pretty cool. Is PN-G perfect in this respect? No. Are there things we could do better? Probably. But the Port Neches-Groves Indians have done way more to honor the Cherokee way of life and to make people aware of the Golden Triangle's American Indian ties than any white liberal arts professor at any highfalutin university ever has or ever will (I say that as a recent, if cynical and disenfranchised, UT grad, fully cognizant of how UT professors have decried PN-G specifically for our use of the American Indian likeness).

And I fully agree with the sentiment expressed by Usedtocould: that there is an opportunity available to modern day Indian tribes involving sports franchises which use Indian imagery that those tribes would be wise to take advantage of. We would be much better served by taking these high profile academic and corporate entities and using them as a vehicle to raise awareness of the American Indian plight and to recruit support for American Indian causes than by protesting the names. I understand the objections to terms like "redskins." I also understand that people are a lot more likely to get on board with an exhibit in a professional sports stadium honoring a particular tribe and its customs that hundreds of thousands of fans from across the country will see every year than they are a negative attack campaign against a popular sports brand. How many more impoverished schoolchildren on a reservation in New Mexico will benefit from an annual fundraiser by the Cleveland Indians than by a protest on a college campus in South Dakota? How much more will students at PN-G learn if the high school partners with the Coushatta reservation in Livingston to offer a special class on American Indian heritage than they will from thousands of angry tweets? There's a much better chance of bringing what's left of American Indian culture back from the brink by working with what we've got than by destroying the only remaining visible signs that Indian nations ever ruled the North American continent.

But I'll get off my soapbox now.

PS: @RoschonsBigBro, I really hope you've got another little brother somewhere in Mid-County. Also, tell Roschon UT's nice and all, but I'd much rather see him go to Alabama. The Tide wins championships. Roll Tide and Scalp 'em.
 

RoschonsBigBro

Active Member
PN-G bamatex said:
Echoing what was stated above, I have a little personal history involved here, too.

Many, many moons ago, a full-blooded Cherokee maiden whose parents were on the Trail of Tears made her way out of the reservation in Oklahoma by working as a servant in a home in Fayetteville, Arkansas. In 1867, she married the son of a local preacher who had returned to Fayetteville after fighting in Arkansas's fourth infantry battalion for the Confederacy during the Civil War, and they moved shortly thereafter to a farm in Collin County, Texas. For nearly fifty years after that, she lived on that farm, and every time the census came around, she put down on paper that she was white, claiming various states as her birthplace (Louisiana in one census, Indiana in another, Michigan in another, and so on). She also always made sure her three children were listed as white. The reason? She was scared to death that if her husband ever died and the government ever came to the farm, they'd round her up and send her back to the reservation she was raised on, the same way they had with her parents. Having taken a white name by marriage, she always hoped that she would go unnoticed if that time ever came. She did, however, keep records of the family line on the inside of the cover of the family Bible, and that and several black and white pictures of a very, very Cherokee woman in her late 60s next to her white husband have been passed down to posterity.

That woman was my three times great grandmother.

Her grandson - my great grandfather - was only a quarter Cherokee. But as many of American Indian descent know, native features can display themselves very prominently in descendants who are overwhelmingly European by heritage, and the pictures make that clear, too. His father was a white blacksmith from Alabama who had married his much younger mother (his third or fourth marriage; we're not sure which) after coming to Texas to get away from the economic depression of the turn-of-the-century deep South. Although his mother died when he was very young, my great grandfather apprenticed as a blacksmith under his father for all of his formative years, eventually inheriting the blacksmith practice as an adolescent.

But nobody trusted an Indian blacksmith, even if he'd spent years learning from a white blacksmith they'd done business with before.

So, looking for work, my great grandfather took the family line back to Oklahoma, which until just recently had been referred to as Indian Territory. There, he found work, though not as a blacksmith, because even there, nobody trusted an Indian blacksmith. Instead, he took up carpentry, and he kept in line with the family tradition of always putting the "W" down on the census forms in case the government ever came back looking for us. He eventually purchased a home in Chickasha, Oklahoma, where he married a white woman and fathered two sons, including my grandfather. In his later years, he would make frequent trips to the reservation in Oklahoma, hoping to reconnect with his ancestral roots. At one point, he even made arrangements for a Cherokee cremation ceremony, though that was later vetoed by his second wife who wanted to be buried alongside him.

My grandfather took a very different approach. Being only an eighth Cherokee by this time, he could pass for white - you could see hints of native heritage if you looked closely, but it wasn't readily apparent to the naked eye. After growing up in dust bowl-era Oklahoma, he left to work in the oil industry in Texas supporting the war effort (he was ineligible for the draft due to a childhood injury). After coming to Texas, he never moved back to Oklahoma, and he never spoke of his heritage to anyone outside of the family; as far as the general public was concerned, he was English like his mother and his father's ancestry was Walsh like his last name. He was terrified that if anyone found out about the Cherokee in him, he would lose work like his father had, and he strictly adhered to that policy right up to the day he died. Only at small family gatherings was it a permissible topic of discussion. My grandmother, who is now 95 and full-blooded German from a Texas German-speaking family, still doesn't like talking about it for fear of judgment. When brought up around her, it is always treated as a touchy subject; as far as I know, she never even told my grandfather's in-laws about it. If old habits die hard, I suppose old social stigmas do, too.

One of the things I appreciate most about my alma mater is the fact that it does embrace the Indian history in our area, and that it does keep the Cherokee and the other tribes at the forefront of the local collective conscience. I deeply appreciate that I went to a school where the fact that I have a few drops of Cherokee blood coursing through my veins wasn't looked down on as grounds for shunning, but rather accepted and if anything, thought of as pretty cool. Is PN-G perfect in this respect? No. Are there things we could do better? Probably. But the Port Neches-Groves Indians have done way more to honor the Cherokee way of life and to make people aware of the Golden Triangle's American Indian ties than any white liberal arts professor at any highfalutin university ever has or ever will (I say that as a recent, if cynical and disenfranchised, UT grad, fully cognizant of how UT professors have decried PN-G specifically for our use of the American Indian likeness).

And I fully agree with the sentiment expressed by Usedtocould: that there is an opportunity available to modern day Indian tribes involving sports franchises which use Indian imagery that those tribes would be wise to take advantage of. We would be much better served by taking these high profile academic and corporate entities and using them as a vehicle to raise awareness of the American Indian plight and to recruit support for American Indian causes than by protesting the names. I understand the objections to terms like "redskins." I also understand that people are a lot more likely to get on board with an exhibit in a professional sports stadium honoring a particular tribe and its customs that hundreds of thousands of fans from across the country will see every year than they are a negative attack campaign against a popular sports brand. How many more impoverished schoolchildren on a reservation in New Mexico will benefit from an annual fundraiser by the Cleveland Indians than by a protest on a college campus in South Dakota? How much more will students at PN-G learn if the high school partners with the Coushatta reservation in Livingston to offer a special class on American Indian heritage than they will from thousands of angry tweets? There's a much better chance of bringing what's left of American Indian culture back from the brink by working with what we've got than by destroying the only remaining visible signs that Indian nations ever ruled the North American continent.

But I'll get off my soapbox now.

PS: @RoschonsBigBro, I really hope you've got another little brother somewhere in Mid-County. Also, tell Roschon UT's nice and all, but I'd much rather see him go to Alabama. The Tide wins championships. Roll Tide and Scalp 'em.

Nope, Roschon is the end of the line for my family. I don't think he has an Alabama offer, I could be wrong. It would be hard to pry him away anyway. Alabama doesn't have a city that makes you excited to live there in addition to the football. Roschon wanted to be somewhere he could see himself living. He loves Austin.
 

bandkid

Moderator
Staff member
RoschonsBigBro said:
Nope, Roschon is the end of the line for my family. I don't think he has an Alabama offer, I could be wrong. It would be hard to pry him away anyway. Alabama doesn't have a city that makes you excited to live there in addition to the football. Roschon wanted to be somewhere he could see himself living. He loves Austin.

I took a look and I guess he doesn't. I thought I'd heard through the grapevine that Alabama was taking a look at him, but I must've mixed it up with Jaylen Garth's offers. That's what I get for not paying enough attention to this site anymore.

I understand why he wants to be in Austin. Let him know if he ever wants a 2011 PN-G grad to show him around, I'm happy to do so, though I'm sure there are plenty of other recent UT grads who are more qualified (and way prettier) than I am that are happy to do so as well. ;D

By the way, I think y'all sit a couple rows behind my parents in Indian Stadium. Section D, about twenty or so rows up?
 

RoschonsBigBro

Active Member
Shoot, you prolly do sit above my dad. I kinda get in where i fit in with my family when I am able to come down and make a game. Say something next time! We cut up down there
 

RoschonsBigBro

Active Member
PN-G bamatex said:
RoschonsBigBro said:
Nope, Roschon is the end of the line for my family. I don't think he has an Alabama offer, I could be wrong. It would be hard to pry him away anyway. Alabama doesn't have a city that makes you excited to live there in addition to the football. Roschon wanted to be somewhere he could see himself living. He loves Austin.

I took a look and I guess he doesn't. I thought I'd heard through the grapevine that Alabama was taking a look at him, but I must've mixed it up with Jaylen Garth's offers. That's what I get for not paying enough attention to this site anymore.

I understand why he wants to be in Austin. Let him know if he ever wants a 2011 PN-G grad to show him around, I'm happy to do so, though I'm sure there are plenty of other recent UT grads who are more qualified (and way prettier) than I am that are happy to do so as well. ;D

By the way, I think y'all sit a couple rows behind my parents in Indian Stadium. Section D, about twenty or so rows up?
Oh btw, you should know my brother Jeremiah too if you finished 2011
 

bandkid

Moderator
Staff member
RoschonsBigBro said:
Jeremiah Rose, WR

Yes, I do remember Jeremiah. We didn't know each other that well because if I recall correctly, he was a year or two younger than I was. But I remember seeing him around the hallways. I had to take freshman communications my senior year because of a scheduling problem and I think he was in that class.
 

RoschonsBigBro

Active Member
PN-G bamatex said:
RoschonsBigBro said:
Jeremiah Rose, WR

Yes, I do remember Jeremiah. We didn't know each other that well because if I recall correctly, he was a year or two younger than I was. But I remember seeing him around the hallways. I had to take freshman communications my senior year because of a scheduling problem and I think he was in that class.
Yup, If only JJ was slightly younger he and Roschon could've played on the same squad and did serious damage.
 

bandkid

Moderator
Staff member
RoschonsBigBro said:
Yup, If only JJ was slightly younger he and Roschon could've played on the same squad and did serious damage.

No doubt. If I recall correctly, Jeremiah got a little college attention?
 

RoschonsBigBro

Active Member
PN-G bamatex said:
RoschonsBigBro said:
Yup, If only JJ was slightly younger he and Roschon could've played on the same squad and did serious damage.

No doubt. If I recall correctly, Jeremiah got a little college attention?
Yeah but he ran into some issues and it didn't work out at Southeastern. I believe if he had Roschon's work ethic he would've had more offers than he had, to better schools than the ones that offered, and he probably makes someones practice squad after college. Tony Brown is in the NFL and he killed him in school. Attitude and work ethic sometimes weights more than talent and potential.
 

twrpng

100+ Posts
I agree work ethic is 50 % of it you can be a great athlete but if you don't put in the time and do the work in the classroom you won't get the college attention. Rumor is that's wat happen to Preston Riggs grades keep him from doing anything at the next level .
 

IndianFan

Administrator
Agree in general. But there is also a long history of less than dedicated/capable scholars receding athletic scholarships. Not all universities are academic driven.
 

RoschonsBigBro

Active Member
IndianFan said:
Agree in general. But there is also a long history of less than dedicated/capable scholars receding athletic scholarships. Not all universities are academic driven.
Not all driven but its still very important. Jamaal Charles and J'Covan Brown both went to UT but they were both nationally ranked players at their positions. You have to be great to pull it off. I don't know about Riggs but I do know from my brother. Westbrook has a qb who may be experiencing similar because he should have 15+ offers right now and has nothing. Grades are the first step because coaches look at your commitment to your schooling. After all, if you go to college to play sports you're an idiot. It's meant for you to get your schooling and that degree.
 

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